I’ve been overwhelmed by both the quantity and the quality of the letters I have received over the last few days, about my column comparing the United Church’s examination of Gretta Vosper’s ministry to the Inquisition. Forty letters is a new record! The quantity -- 40 letters, covering 18 pages when print out! -- makes it impossible for me to simply append them to this coming Sunday’s Sharp Edges column. The quality of the letters’ reasoning also makes it difficult for me to reduce them to Twitter-length excerpts. Even so, I have done some editing -- mostly for length, but I hope without distorting anyone’s intent. Warning: even with some editing, this is a very long mailing. So instead of the usual “Your Turn” section in the regular Sunday mailing, I’ve set up this special mailing entirely of your letters. Rather than simply dumping them on you unsorted, I have grouped the letters. 1. Those who took issue with me. 2. Those who agreed with me about the United Church’s process. 3. Those who endorse, more or less, Gretta Vosper’s theology. 4. And finally, a few shorter comments. A few writers identified that they wrote from other countries or denominations. A few also asked that I not use their names, as they feared repercussions in their work or their communities.
Disagreement with my stand
David Shearman: “I was disappointed in your column on Gretta Vosper. No, the United Church isn't reinstituting the Inquisition. The review process has always been there to determine the effectiveness of a minister. I have been a part of one as a presbyter and as the subject of a review. “I agree with the General Secretary that not believing in God or any aspect of the Christian faith is grounds for a review. The issue here is accountability; something Vosper appears to be unfamiliar with. It's not about the pastoral relationship. It's not about what she does on her own time. It's about what she believes and if that is in harmony with the beliefs of the United Church. We are not a creedal church, but that doesn't mean we are a beliefless church.”
Don Schau: “I have a different view on the question of Gretta Vosper’s fitness for ministry. It is not true to say that ministers can “be incompetent, … but as long as they give the right answers to theological questions, they’re qualified to be ministers.” Ministers must have many qualities not considered in the question of “essential agreement.” These are evaluated throughout their candidacy and training, not just by their answers to a few questions at the time of ordination. “The issue is specifically that she is a self-proclaimed atheist. She chooses, as you have, to define atheist differently than the average person understands it. This does not change the fact that saying you are an atheist will be heard by most people as the traditional definition. She further misleads people by suggesting that people who disagree with her believe in the magical god out there somewhere. As a current ministry student I can say that is not the God I or most people I know believe in. However, none of us would consider ourselves as atheists by either definition. “For me, the issue is that we call ourselves Christians. If we are followers of Jesus it is possible to define what we believe and follow in a wide variety of ways. However, I don’t think we can dispense completely with Jesus and still wear that label. I do believe in God and in Jesus and I believe that when we dispense with them we can be as well intentioned as possible but still fail. Until we recognize a greater power is at work in creation we will continue to think we are in control and can ‘fix’ the world on our own. “I have friends who attend West Hill. They are good people. I attended there once and I did not find it worshipful as there was no reference to God or Jesus in the service… so it is not clear to me what or who was being worshipped.
“To be clear, I don’t have an answer to this situation. On one hand, I believe in a welcoming and inclusive church. I would certainly not turn someone away who found meaning in a worship service because they believe differently from me. However, it is different with a position of leadership. I don’t think that someone in a Christian church should be proclaiming from the pulpit they don’t believe in Jesus. In spite of what some people think, though, we are not a church where anything goes. “Would I welcome Vosper into my congregation? Absolutely. Would I engage in the discussion without shutting it down? Absolutely. Would I accept her in leadership promoting her version of faith? No, I would not. Sadly, that leaves me, and many, I think, who feel this way, uncertain as to the correct course of action. “I have also pondered your description of ‘essential agreement’ as a ‘weasel phrase.’ For many of us this phrase leads us to search deep within ourselves for an answer. We take seriously the difficulty of defining what essential agreement is, and what it is we are agreeing to. I would argue that those who use it as a weasel phrase should consider whether they are fit for ministry.”
John McTavish: “The United Church may be looking bad at the moment. But surely she is the one who has forced the church to draw a line in the sand. And surely, too, such lines need to be drawn from time to time. I am not, for example, a Catholic. I may disagree with the Catholics in all kinds of ways. But I can't fault them for being who they are, and insisting on their identity in the face of those who would attempt to destroy it. “Similarly, Gretta would appear to be attempting to destroy our United Church identity. This obviously doesn't disturb the people in her congregation who agree with her. But what about the people in her congregation who felt that a secular crowd had pushed them out? Tough bananas? Is that what we're saying to these people while encouraging other United Church ministers to conduct future secular take-overs in other congregations? “Why doesn't Greta become a Unitarian? But, no, she wants to turn us into Unitarians (or maybe not even into Unitarians but atheists). If we draw a line in the sand and say, nope, cross that line and you're out, we look like bigots. But if we don't draw a line in the sand, we open to door to any number of future hostile take-overs.”
Helen Reid: “I found your comparisons inflammatory, Gretta is not facing the stake or the rack. Your assumptions about the disconnect between belief and practice, and your suggestions about the nature of God and discipline in UCC ministry, are inadequate. Ministry is about being faithful to the tradition with which we are entrusted. Lay people and clergy are .called to continue to grow in faith and understanding, not to throw out what has guided the church for centuries. Clergy are ordained and commissioned to spread the good news of Jesus Christ, not their own ruminations on the nature of reality. I grieve that you have so misrepresented our church.”
Janet Cawley: “In my opinion you are not being fair to [Vosper] at all. If you read her writings, especially her carefully prepared statement for the Review (available on the Toronto Conference website) she makes it clear that she no longer believes in any sort of God, theist, post-theist or anything other kind; Jesus is a historical figure of no particular relevance; there is no Spirit, holy or otherwise. There is no special role for the Bible, the sacraments or the theological traditions of Christianity. All that matters is ethical relationships between humans. “She is certainly free to believe that and to encourage others to go that way. But she has left even the broad tent of the United Church of Canada far behind. She has become an Ethical Humanist, which is a grand thing to be, but is not Christian. “We like to confuse religion and ethics – I have heard people say that Mandela or Gandhi, for example, were ‘better Christians than us.’ No, they were not Christians and would not be thrilled to be called one. They may have been better human beings than most of us; they were more noble in their ethical behaviour than I am, but Christianity does not have a monopoly on right action…. Surely we are beyond suggesting that all good people must be Christian because only Christians can be good.”
Steve Roney: Compare Gretta Vosper to someone who buys a McDonald's franchise. Then they publish a book saying McDonald's menu is unhealthy, and stop serving any of it in their restaurant. Instead, they go, say, all vegan. Nobody, surely, would suppose that McDonald's was acting unreasonably in pulling the franchise. To continue to
advertise that restaurant as a McDonald's would be false advertising, a fraud upon the public, and harmful to McDonald's reputation. “This, it seems to me, is the position of the United Church in this matter. Had they done nothing, they would have been signalling, first, that they no longer had any corporate standards, and second that they had contempt for their adherents [who were] presumably expected to whatever that particular cook -- er, minister -- chose to serve them. “There is no question here of violating any rights of Vosper. Nobody has a right to a particular job. She is perfectly free to believe or to say whatever she wants. She is perfectly free, if she can find or keep a congregation, even to continue to minister.She simply cannot represent herself as a spokesperson for the United Church. Should Fuller Brush be obliged to employ someone who goes door to door telling people how bad Fuller brushes are?”
George Hermanson: As one panentheist to what I remember of our theological talks, I am surprised to read this. I take her at word that she is an atheist. Of course classical theism died over 100 years ago. No main line theology holds [it today]. I am surprised by the tone of your rant. You confused the issue when you introduced the ethical [element].”
Bethan Theunisson: “I respectfully disagree. You have unfortunately made some huge leaps...” [Bethan then quoted and rebutted several passages from my column, too extensive to reproduce all over again: JT] On other kinds of misdemeanors: “Clergy who are incompetent, pedophiles, embezzlers, sociopaths who give the right answers to theological questions are also disciplined, but for different reasons.” On a “distant and capricious God,” Few of us clergy or lay believe these things! That is not the problem here.” On my own experience of God, “Greta did not say she experienced God more than previously. She said the very idea of God is a problem. “I don't think Greta would even be under discussion by anyone if she had not written an open letter to the moderator, Gary, at the time, and said that he was causing world problems by writing a prayer to any God at all. For Greta, it is not a matter of live and let live, it is a matter of see it my way or you are part of the problem. “I too hope the church decides wisely, but I believe that being clear about where our core beliefs and values begin and end is a part of every organizations necessary identity. I believe that Greta and her congregation should either find family with the Unitarians, where she would be right at home, or in a parallel structure where United Church folks who move beyond Trinitarianism can find a home. “This conversation has been good for the church. It has forced it to move out of weaslyism, as you so aptly put it, and say that we are about something that we believe, namely a God who was revealed to us in the person of Jesus. We don't reject others who don't share this belief, but if you want to be a clergy ambassador for this church, you have to share the core belief…. “I don't believe Greta is evil or wrong. She just no longer fits in this family as it now stands. When I don't, I will leave and find another one where I do fit. [But] I won't insist everyone who doesn't see it my way is wrong and causing more problems in the world.”
Sharon Adams: “I too am a United Church member but I have been baffled by why it took far too long to investigate [Vosper’s] fitness to minister. I can't imagine worshiping or feeling at all comfortable in a congregation where the minister did not believe in God. When her beliefs changed I think she should have resigned. She could no longer help her parishioners on a spiritual journey she was no longer on herself. “A church is a building used for Christian religious services. How can we be called a church if we don't believe in Jesus Christ and God? If the higher courts reject the [examining committee’s] decision, I will be deeply disappointed in our leadership. I would have to pray about my own continued involvement.”
Paul Schmidt: “Your reasoning in your article is severely flawed. You set up straw men (people) and then proceed to sarcastically shoot them down. You define words is such a way (theism, God, Trinity, heresy) that only your friend Torquemada would defend them, yet you blame your United Church colleagues for sharing the same definition. I do not pretend to understand United Church politics since I am only a lowly retired Lutheran pastor, but I think you did yourself poorly in this rant.”
Connie Thompson: “As a retired ordained United Church minister I probably would not take exception to Greta's theology. We are inclusive and I love to discuss these issues with parishioners who have a similar theology to her. Our God really is beyond definition. “However, we (the clergy) are accountable to the institution of the United Church. That institution [asks] questions of each candidate who may be entrusted with the responsibilities of paid accountable ministry. It may have been 1905 or whenever and today is 2016 but the church has not changed the questions to allow for admission of those who are not theistic. I don't know if Greta 1) misrepresented her beliefs when asked initially or 2) changed her theology significantly after being ordained. The point is that she has named herself ‘outside of the pale’ in calling herself an atheist. She has refused to be accountable to the United Church of Canada and she has flaunted a belief that is scandalous both to our denomination and to Christendom in general. “If she is helpful and authentic to her congregational members, hopefully [she] will remain in ministry to those who wish to worship with her. But unless the requirements to become clergy including questions of belief are changed in our denomination, she doesn't belong within the United Church. “I don't see that as harsh. I see it as reality. Ministry often means putting aside your own opinions in deference to the wisdom of the majority. It is one way we guard against the tyranny of egotism.” Connie added, “I don't agree that this is a witch hunt or an inquisition. If you think that the Basis of Union should be changed, then start a remit process or petition to change it!”
John Dickey: Your inference that, ‘Ministers could be incompetent, they could be embezzlers or sociopaths, they could even be pedophiles, but as long as they give the right answers to theological questions, they’re qualified to be ministers,’ bugs me. I believe there is incompetence and that the church should have a more effective mechanism to keep ministers accountable. However don't lump it in with Vosper’s transgressions. Vosper has outgrown ‘God’ and, as reported in the Observer, has banished the word ‘God’ from readings and hymns. Vosper shouldn't be putting our church in the position to have to throw her out. If it looks like a divorce, feels like a divorce, and counselling is done, then step aside. “There are many ministers who handle ‘out-dated theistic images’ with more class and believability than Vosper. “I have no trouble with the church being liberal, but there is a limit. Standards are needed. Kudos to our church for recognising that. May it continue to do so.”
Harold Wells: You’ve oversimplified this whole business around Greta Vosper. You’ve seriously mis-represented her critics and the committee that interviewed her, and this is unfair. “Neither the committee, nor anyone else, said that belief matters more than behaviour. Yes, the practice of love matters more than anything. But in this case ‘behaviour’ was not in question… If the UCC was just a charitable institution, or a political party, or whatever, belief in God would be irrelevant. But the UCC is a Christian church, so belief in God does matter. People’s faith matters. For many people in the church, it is faith that sustains them in the face of terrible circumstances. Their faith gives them direction, meaning and hope. It is very hurtful for many people when their faith is undermined, especially by a minister. So loving people can also mean caring about their faith. “Even if the church were a political party, which it isn’t, it would have boundaries. The NDP would not nominate a leader who rejected medicare. The Conservative party would not elect a candidate who favoured eradication of capitalism. “The UCC is rightly proud of its blurry boundaries, inclusivity, and freedom of thought, but does have to have some boundaries somewhere, and not only moral ones.
“Greta rejects only ‘classical theism,’ but theism in general. Having read her writings and heard her speak, this is very clear to me. She also rejects the sacraments, prayer, and worship of God. The alternative to classical theism is not necessarily a-theism. Lately ‘classical theism’ means an utterly transcendent, all-controlling, invulnerable, unchangeable deity. Most of us in the UCC no longer adhere to such a theism. But we do believe in God, who is not only transcendent (as you put it, ‘up there’) but also immanent and universally present; who is by no means all-controlling, or invulnerable or unchanging. The God who is Love, revealed in Jesus Christ, is precisely the One who does not control or domineer, who suffers in Christ, and with all the suffering of the world, who is dynamic and alive, and therefore not static. “In the recent (official) ‘Song of Faith’, the doctrine of God there is far from ‘classical theism’. Even the (official) ‘New Creed’ – 1968, 1982, 1994 – does not exhibit the kind of ignorance you ascribe to Greta’s critics. She need not ascribe to the 1925 statement of doctrine, or 1940, for that matter. If she were in ‘essential’ agreement with the New Creed and the Song of Faith, she’d be fine. But she clearly is not.”
Joan Burrows: I am distressed and saddened to read your harsh language and opinions. As a lifelong member of the United Church, I ‘hang in’ for many reasons, as do many others whose theological understandings may have changed and deepened, and who also may not believe in many of the traditional church teachings or much of the traditional ‘church language’. So we empathize with many of Gretta Vosper’s ideas and appreciate the challenge to our beliefs. “During years of involvement on both the Conference Education and Students’ Committee and Conference Interview Boards, I have also lived through many changes in criteria for ordained ministry. I thus know full well that, thank goodness, that the United Church allows for a wide range of theological stances within the ‘essential agreement’ required for ordination. But there is a bottom line for being ordained within the church – and that is surely belief in the Mystery at the centre of the universe. “Ms. Vosper is obviously a humanitarian. Fine and good. But we expect a different level of faith, theology, and commitment to the Church in our ordained clergy. “Whatever recommendations and decisions currently being made regarding her ordination are being agonizingly and thoroughly considered by competent, caring people. It is simply a writer’s hyperbole, and entirely inflammatory and divisive, to compare this process to the Inquisition.”
Concerns about the process
Bev Edwards-Sawatzky: “What a frighteningly unChristian process. Reading the review report was horrifying. Gretta Vosper has been opening important conversations in the UC and more broadly in theological thinking in general. Hopefully more enlightened minds will prevail and this travesty will be stopped.”
Tom Watson: “Excellent article… As we know, the final chapter isn't yet written as the recommendations of the 23member panel go to higher levels in the United Church for determination. The choice is clear: Will the United Church, as it has so often done in the past, stand on the verge of the future, or will it opt for the precipice of the past?”
Fran Ota: “I have been aghast at what this church is doing. Gretta began using the term 'atheist' a few years ago when relatives of members of West Hill were tortured and murdered in Bangladesh for being atheist. It was an act of solidarity. Gretta and West Hill asked for non-confrontational dialogue over a year ago and have been flatly refused. There is no approved process for such an evaluation as this, so Conference went to the General Council to ask for a process [which] goes into uncharted territory. I attended the open presentations at the Sub Executive… Conference was asked at one point how they thought they could be the arbiter of 'right theology' for the entire United Church.
A couple of things: we don't revoke ordination. We put the person on the Discontinued Service List... they can no longer take any leadership role within the United Church in any capacity. But they remain ordained. Also, at the time Gretta was ordained, not everyone affirmed the 1925 vows of ordination. Gretta didn't. At that time, [the UCC] were experimenting with alternatives in baptism, communion, and -- in Gretta's case -- ordination vows at Bay of Quinte Conference. A few years later we were yanked back to the more orthodox formulae (still in The Manual) by a head office which felt its ecumenical partnerships were more important. So Gretta was never asked those particular vows of ordination. She is being reviewed on the basis of something she was not asked to affirm in the first place. This has revived memories of the mid-60's, Harvey Cox's Secular City, Altizer and Hamilton's 'Radical Theology and the Death of God', Robinson’s 'Honest to God', Nietsche, and the New Curriculum. Gretta says that period in the church shaped many of us. It shaped me significantly, and to me Gretta's position isn't new. If she is indeed removed from ministry within the United Church, this isn't my church any more. It attacks my very identity within the church as 'unsuitable'.”
Hanny Kooyman: If she were a minister in a church close by, I would attend every Sunday. She has my full support and I hope that the United Church will revoke such a ridiculous accusation. At present I'm reading her book ‘With or Without God"; it should be in all UC libraries, next to Spong, Crossan, and Borg. “I hope the churches will evolve again, and again.”
Isabel Gibson: “I wonder whether the problem is that the committee is trying to enforce a standard of belief, or that they're trying to enforce an outmoded standard?”
Trina Norman: I wanted to tell you that your column about the UCC and Gretta was wonderful to read. My disappointment is palpable. I am afraid if this finding is not overturned my tenuous hold on membership will be forever broken.”
Name withheld: The action against Vosper is a sure sign of a church in mortal decline. If the church were strong and confident, it would brush off GV as an annoyance, one squeaky wheel among 2,500 other ministers, and maybe sit down with her and ask that she refrain from diss-ing the moderator. It could even spin its tolerance of a minister like GV as a sign of its strength. But because it's weak it circles the wagons to protect an orthodoxy that doesn't really exist. And in protecting it, the church is doing great harm to itself -- it will lose credibility with a large number of members and adherents, and quash any hope of engaging non-churchgoing but spiritually minded people. To my mind, developing a conversation with those folks was the church's last, best hope.
Eileen Wttewaal: “You didn’t mince words about the Vosper trial which some have termed a witch hunt as well as heresy trial. I suppose in this day of right-wing conservative individualistic fundamentalism in politics and economics, expressed in materialism and militarism, we can only expect it to also be manifest in religious quarters too. Sticking with the status quo presumably helps us deal with our fears.”
Doreen Orman: “I have been a UC member for over 50 years … I have been part of the growth from those old beliefs to a progressive theology that corresponds with Gretta Vosper's. I am appalled with this inquisition …
Margaret Carr: “Just who are the higher courts of the church? I am amazed by how closed-minded the committee who judged Vosper is. Have they not learned anything since 1925? And how can the Toronto Conference decide who should judge Vosper. I guess I too am an atheist as I do not believe in a theistic God who knows all, sees all, and chooses one of his children over another. I believe in a loving God who is in everyone, whether they know it or not. I also believe in trying to live a life that follows Jesus’ teachings. The committee who judged Gretta Vosper is not following the ways of Jesus.
“I am ashamed of my United Church of Canada, and I have been a member for 84 years.”
Marion Loree: Thank you for putting my thoughts down so succinctly. I shall have to re-evaluate my opinion of the United Church and whether I belong in it if the church goes through with this 'inquisition-like' charge against Gretta. I and many clergy I know also rejected those classical views of God long ago (before ordination on my part) and I find it hard to believe that a church so in the fore-front of so many social issues would act in this manner toward a minister who is loved by her congregation and is, by all other standards, is a very 'effective' minister. I admire her courage and stand with her in challenging the centuries-old ideas that keep most thinking people out of the church today. Obviously the word 'atheist' carries as much baggage as does the word 'God'.”
Dale Perkins: “I couldn't have said it clearer or better! As I've said numerous times (to the likes of David Allen for example) the institutional church must jettison the notion it can discipline anyone, let alone any ordered minister, on the basis of beliefs. Behaviour and actions, sure, but NOT beliefs. There's absolutely no way I could now affirm what I was instructed to affirm some 50+ years ago, when I was ordained back there before a Sask. Conference Interview committee/board. “So what do those people out there in Lala-land think they are doing? Nora Sanders (GC Secretary) or whoever it is who counselled her to write that nonsense, should be fired!.”
Gwen Boyd: “I am distressed with the actions being taken. Many of us would go with her if subjected to the same process, myself included.”
Thoughts about theologies
Name withheld: I have been encouraged to question and learn about the Spirit or Holy Mystery that guides me in my life. I give my best to my congregation, about my thoughts, my interpretations. I do not lie about my thoughts, my doubts, my questions, and my interpretations. I freely share them in my Sunday reflections and in shared conversations. I hope others will do the same with me. In so doing we learn about our God, whether He is Trinitarian or just Holy Mystery, or whatever name/description you wish to use. “Like Gretta Vosper, I see things in ways that are different from others. I have been taught that that is a good thing. Why should Gretta Vosper not define her beliefs in her ‘way’, her own words, and be applauded for them? I stand with Gretta Vosper and feel that the United Church should not revoke her ordination! I hope that my Church will stand with me on this.”
Name withheld: “Lots of members of the United Church, and clergy, who share common ground with her. Her theology is not particularly new, nor even particularly well developed. Many others have gone down that path for 50 or so years, at least. I have been privileged to work alongside many of them. We have preached our beliefs while being in positions of leadership in many different ways within the denomination. “Please do not use my name. I no longer feel safe expressing any kind of support for Rev. Vosper. So I guess the new Inquisition is already succeeding.”
Jean Skillman: I left the United Church for the Unitarian because of the values you describe here. My church was struggling with theism and a-theism, and so was I. I chose the latter, as I feel that right relationship was better achieved for me in the context of atheism. “A friend told me that one can acknowledge and support one's own change, and that changing a group to suit ones own change may not be the best use of energy. Particularly when another place that has already moved in the direction desired.
“I needed a landing place for myself and found it in Unitarianism, but I want to say that Gretta was and is a woman of significance in my transition. If West Hill had been closer that would have been my church home.”
Susanna Suchak: “A deep bow of gratitude for your voice on this "inquisition". I too declined ordination, for the same reasons you outlined. “While I was in seminary, some of the United Churches invited Gretta Vosper to speak. I was thrilled. I got to talk with her for a period of time. My discernment committee heartily commended me. Some of them were more than eager to stand by her ‘outlandish’ stands. As a seminarian, I found that what she was saying (and I own all her books) aligned perfectly with my own theology… Eventually, I couldn't continue to mouth words that jarred with my own ethics and belief system. “Now, I ache to be a part of a community that supports each other, works toward social justice, is inclusive and so on...I am an Irish Mohawk and I am trying to speak to people to help find a balanced and harmonious way to be Canadian together in the aftermath and generational trauma of the Residential School System instituted by our Canadian government and implemented by our mainstream churches. Two generations ago I lost my connection to my heritage community. Now, I've lost my church that was for most of my life my community. I feel very lonely. What gives me hope is that there are people, like you, who have the courage to stand up and speak out.”
Bonita Garrett: “During my own ordinations vows, ‘essential agreement’ was the lifeline that recognized this process was created in 1925 -- a different time, a different era, a different context in the world of biblical studies, sociology, literature, etc. Having an experience of God and a call to a ministry which included Jesus’ example of empowering others to stand up for equality and justice, those same words at ordination provided hope that others would move farther along a path of actions with less dogma. It hasn’t happened to the extent that I was envisioning. “I find the word ‘atheist’ problematic. To come to the conclusion that one is an atheist means that one has wrestled with the concept of God. According to the Pew Research Center, ‘some adults who describe themselves as atheist also say they believe in God or a universal spirit.’ My question is whether or not a ‘true’ atheist (for lack of a better word) would ever have considered the possibility that a god or gods existed.”
John Shaffer, of Auburn, Washington State: “After hearing Gretta Vosper lecture in Seattle and enjoying the quality of the music that her husband produces for worship, I read two of her books. She has more spiritual depth than most clergy I have known. If she is finally rejected by the United Church of Canada, she will land on her feet somewhere, but it will be a loss for the kingdom. I wonder how many of her ‘judges’ actually read her books? Will we ever know? In my view, if the ‘judges’ have not read her books, they should disqualify themselves.”
Rob Dummermuth: With a practical streak to my nature, and being a late-comer to faith (I was 27 before encountering any expression of Christianity that ‘rang bells’ for me) I have always had difficulty with the doctrine of the Trinity. When at to the Uniting Church in Australia (UCA) theological college in my 40s, I expressed this problem to the faculty. With their encouragement I took a year-long course in Trinity offered by the Roman Catholic college. My interest in the doctrine has continued - I can now, in my 70's, give many explanations -- none of which work satisfactorily or even pretend to be complete. Church History reveals many abuses of this supposed ‘foundational dogma.’ I had hoped it was well over by now. “I certainly identify with Gretta Vosper in my experience of the divine, and am sure many in the UCA will stand with you. The United Church of Canada is a leader and inspiration for many of us in the rest of the world. If Torquemada's movement takes off I will be guilty of heresy as well.”
Jim Von Riesen: Thank you for this defense of Gretta and your clear statement of the narrow tunnel vision of the Church. It is no wonder that our churches are emptying and closing The church has gotten mired in the past and in the ineffectual doctrine of our ancestors. During my time at Calling Lakes Centre (PCTC) I was part of leadership teams that led programs on understanding and sharing theology along with the Bible and its message. Time and time again I heard frustrated, even angry, voices asking: ‘Why hasn't our church told us this before? Why have our ministers not shared the theology and biblical understanding that has been around for almost 100 years?’”
Don Sandin: “This article started a flash-back for me. At my first Baptist church in 1949 in Northern Minnesota, my theology was that espoused by the denomination. In 1958, standing at the church door dismissing the congregation, I had a sudden epiphany: ‘The only thing worthy of preaching is Love and Service.’ In 1997 I preached at 1st Presbyterian Church in Brooklyn and said that Jesus was not the only Son of God, that we all were born of God, pure and sinless -- and I quoted all the scriptures supporting those statements. “My thoughts about God and my relationship to God continue to change. The whole process is amazing and I am truly excited about the changing nature of the Infinite and my relationship to It. It is truly unfortunate for those who do not continue to have their their hearts and minds expand. Praise God for people like Gretta Vosper!”
Keith Simmonds: Thank you for this column. I agree with the dissenting opinion at Toronto Conference. We have processes to discipline and remove people from ministry if they are harming others, but, as you point out, those processes are not meant to deal with a person's theology. “I don’t think a lot of it has much to do with Gretta, or her communication choices. It’s more likely to have something to do with our own paths, the roads we’ve taken to get to here. In my case it’s all about who I’m in community with, and who wants to be in community with me. I was raised in small industrial towns where one was defined by neighbourhood and affiliation. One was ‘company’ or ‘union’; ‘Protestant’ or ‘Catholic’; ‘worker’ or ‘boss’; ‘striker’ or ‘scab’. You knew who you were and who your friends were. You stuck by them, they stuck by you. “Eventually, I found myself in a circle made much wider by grace and call than I’d ever imagined possible. And I was astonished by grace, by love, by acceptance, by joy. By deepening understanding and widening community. I found myself falling into the mystery of love. “Gretta is part of that community. I can no more segment her into ‘other’ than I can my friends, colleagues and relations. I am rooted in a historic stance of community that my experience of Jesus and Christ and the divine insistence on love has worked and molded and shaped and turned and cured into something that I cannot be unbound from. Nor would I, if I could.”
Name withheld: “Is there really a difference between an athiest and an a-theist? If so, it seems that few understand it. I think I am in the a-theist category, as my problem seems to be with the word God, which seems to me to be our Sunday school God. “Has she just become more radical, trying to push the church to change? Foolish girl! In the final edition of her Progressive Christianity mag, she wrote that she has given up on the church ever changing. If she understands that, is she pushing to be defrocked, to force them to wake up?”
Robert Klombies: “I am not a member of the United Church of Canada. I wholeheartedly agree with your support of openness and freedom of belief in religious life. The United Church of Canada has been a leader in so many ways it is disappointing to see this current movement to silence Gretta Vosper. Her voice reassures those who try to reconcile 21st century knowledge of how the cosmos works (limited as that knowledge may be) with that experience of ‘the other’ that we feel in our lives. May the UCC decision makers recognize the importance of the United Church in continuing to be that force for change in religious traditions, and reinforce the fact that true spirituality is reflected in how we live, not in an unquestioned acceptance of a list of beliefs that don't make sense to all of us.”
Ken Nicholls, writing from Norfolk, England: “Now that I have retired as a Methodist minister I have had more time to read and reflect and find myself becoming less and less orthodox. I am seeing in people more and more instances of God at work in strange and interesting ways that I probably did not have the time to notice before. “I feel that the Trinity is not so much something to be believed as something to be experienced. Just as we meet and pass others and experience their warmth, love, and grace in so many different ways, then that seems to be the way that we encounter God. Instead of criticising someone for not being able to say the correct words, it would be better to assess how the Trinity can be seen active and alive in their very being. “I feel it is always important to be moving on in our faith and we need to be constantly challenging ourselves.”
Ron Klusmeier: Thank you for so clearly articulating my feelings on the matter. I keep trying to love this church of ours despite its best attempts to piss me off. I had almost decided to give in (read: get out), but then decided I’m not going to be bullied by this self-righteous nonsense. I wonder if all who are holding on to their 1925 theological positions would be equally comfortable purchasing 50 pound blocks for the icebox, remaining vulnerable to diseases of the time, and freezing their splintered butts in outhouses in the winter.”
Anne Gartshore: “I, too, with Greta Vosper, do not believe in a theistic God. I sympathize with her refusal to use the word God as it is loaded with so much baggage, so many interpretations layered on over the years. Many of our friends are in the same boat with her. What does that mean for us? Do we leave the United Church where we come to get spiritual nourishment and the companionship of like minds, essentially our grounding community, and float out to become part of that nebulous, unfocused SBNR group? It is a quandary. So many people in this world and in the church want black and white answers, rules for living, that do not encompass the grey areas, the situation ethics which Jesus seemed to practice. I'm going to stay with the group I know of thinking caring people and leave the definitions to the ‘Angels on the head of a pin’ splitters. Poor Greta, poor us.”
Chris Duxbury, in Australia: “I am not keen on the line of an old hymn, All praise to our redeeming Lord, that says ‘we cordially agree’. Diversity in theological thought can be a real strength; there are things we don't have to all agree on. I guess there is always the ‘drawing the line in the sand’ part, where folk have to work out just how diverse we are allowed to be, yet still remaining true to our faith.”
Finally, a few short comments
Elaine and Murray Wilson: “A heartfelt thank you for your piece on Gretta and the Inquisition.”
Gerald Towgood: “Thank you for applying your gift as a writer to Gretta’s and our cause. I’ve shared your words with Gretta. Sheila and I will be attending service shortly this morning [at West Hill United: JT]” . Jim Kirkwood: I appreciate your piece and support the main the thrust of it. It’s cleverly and effectively written.”
Shelagh Parsons: “Thanks Jim; it was written so succinctly and with such depth. I appreciate it very much. Here's hoping!!”
Clair Woodbury: “Great column. You hit the nail right on the head. That column needs to be published in The Observer. People need to hear that this is an important decision that will make a great deal of difference for the United Church in the future.”
Norrie Cochrane: “I just wanted to tell you that your words are exactly how I too feel.”